Welcome back to the communication and cultural policy in the age of the Platform conference. I'm Sara Bannerman and welcome to our
last day and the keynote panel that we've all been looking forward to I'd like to introduce now the Chair of the keynote panel.
Dr Faiza Hirji, my colleague at McMaster in the department of communication studies and multimedia or as it's about to be called media arts.
Dr Hirji specializes in research exploring media and representation of race, religion, ethnicity and gender.
The use of media in the construction of identity and the importance of media within diasporic and transnational communities.
She's currently working on a project of analyzing media depictions of Muslim women as well as two special journal issues, one on Bollywood power and politics.
And the other one on racism and colonialism in Canadian communication studies her book dreaming in Canadian South Asian youth Bollywood and belonging
was published in 2010 by UBC press and she's published articles on the formation of online communities by Muslim Canadians.
The depiction of Islam in Indian cinema, equity in ehealth, gender and religion in television, and music and musical cultures in the South Asian diaspora.
Her work has appeared in many prestigious journals and it's a real honor to have her here today and to chair today's keynote panel.
I'll pass it over to you Faiza to introduce our panelists.
That's great. Thank you so much, Sara and thanks so much for having me, I know that there have
been land acknowledgments already in this conference, but just wanted to quickly acknowledge that, although we're all zooming in from around the country, of course
As a representative of McMaster university, I want to acknowledge that we are located on the territory of the Mississauga and Haudenosaunee nations.
And within the lands protected by the dish with one spoon wampum agreement, and I know that my McMaster colleagues and I are
grateful for the privilege to work and live on these lands and recognize our responsibilities as settlers on these territories.
We only have one hour today to hear from our powerhouse panel, now that we have everyone assembled virtually but that's how we do things these days so i'll keep these remarks quick.
I'll just let you know we're going to start with a few prepared questions for our panelists and we'll leave time for questions from the audience.
So feel free as we're talking to drop questions into the chat and the conference organizers or I will try to keep an eye on these.
Please keep your microphones muted, although I think we're all pretty good now with with our zoom etiquette but just as a reminder and, of course, turning on your cameras is totally optional.
I'm not going to read out biographies again for our panelists since hopefully you've managed to catch their keynotes I've seen some familiar names as i've been hopping in and out over the week.
And you would have heard they're very impressive biographies at that time but i'll just quickly recap, who we have on our panel today so we're fortunate today to be joined by Jesse Wente
From the indigenous screen office and Jesse Wente is a writer, broadcaster, speaker, and arts leader.
In 2018 Jesse was named the first Executive Director of the indigenous screen office and in 2020
became the only First Nations person ever to hold the position of Chair of the Canada council for the arts.
Joan Jenkinson who many of you just heard from is the inaugural Executive Director of the black screen office and a founding partner and producer at Artemis pictures.
Which is focused on developing and producing high end scripted content for television and the cinema for international audiences.
Sharon McGowan is a founding member and past President of women in film and television Vancouver and serves on the board of directors as Co chair of it's advocacy committee.
She is an award winning documentary writer and director and an independent producer of internationally recognized feature films and also an associate professor at the University of British Columbia.
And Susan Brinton is co Chair of the advocacy Committee for Women in film and television Vancouver and a founding member
of WIFT Canada, the Vice President of WIFT international, a member of the women in production steering committee for the CRTC, so welcome again everyone.
So we'll start off with our questions, and maybe what i'll do is i'm just going to kind of call on people.
Two or three at a time to answer some of these questions, but one of the things that i've been struck by as i've been listening to your keynotes over the course of the week is that
The pandemic of course it has had an effect on some of the work that you're doing and, at times, it can exacerbate problems but it sounds like some of you have also
been identifying the opportunity that can come out of crisis and, of course, we always have to be a bit cautious about saying that crisis can form opportunity
But certainly a kind of major shift can result in change, and so the question, then, and it doesn't have to be around the pandemic but generally speaking
Are there, is our moment of crisis, whether you see this as environmental crisis or a crisis of violence, the pandemic, does this moment of crisis
create opportunities for new ways of framing cultural policy objectives and Joan maybe I can start with you, if that's okay.
Sure, we were born out of the pandemic and but also coupled with the black lives matter
Demonstrations around the world, so it was the perfect time for us as i've said before you know we've been doing advocacy work for years and years and years to
people who were not listening and had no intention of doing anything and now suddenly doors are open minds are open and we're having conversations that
we've never had before the idea of having a national policy for black arts and culture would have been laughable a few months ago, and you know talking about filling the legislative
gaps we you know wouldn't even be on the table so it's been an extraordinary time you know for our organization and I'm sure for lots of others as well, but just started recently or
Like the indigenous screen office that's been around advocating for their issues for so many years.
That's great thanks Joan and that's maybe a great transition to ask Jesse if you wouldn't mind also commenting on that.
Thank you so much, I mean before I say anything else, I first want to say, listening to Joan reminds me a lot of my first year, when I was all alone.
JESSE WENTE: At the digital screen office, which was actually just three years ago believably and so I'll say what I was
JESSE WENTE: asking for myself and I'll ask this on Joan's behalf, please give her money to hire someone I don't know if anyone can hear me.
JESSE WENTE: Please just give her money and then she can hire more people and it gets so much easier
JESSE WENTE: When you when you have other people it's so hard when you're alone and you're
Getting flooded with all this stuff. In terms of the question, thank you, and what an honor to be on this really tremendous panel of people.
I think a lot of the things we're seeing addressed in policy now pre existed the pandemic, I think what that you know and pre existed it by like you know decades and generations.
I think what covid has done is that.
It actually freed the government up if i'm brutally honest it freed the government up to spend in a way that
They couldn't before and I think that the fact that the pandemic came with sort of the ongoing civil rights movement
Having a particular moment last year, provided them another opportunity to actually address these in a moment when frankly spending was
favorable you know there wasn't a lot of critics around spending during the middle of a pandemic, I'm not you know we're certainly thankful still not enough
For what we've received, and you know, certainly we advocated for maybe a different methodology around spending during the pandemic.
But I think it freed them up to sort of look at solutions that pre pandemic would have been politically harder and
you know one thing being in this job has taught me is politics and
Unfortunately it's taught me that you know oftentimes doing the right thing is beholden to politics
before it's actually beholden to just doing the right thing and, but I think that the pandemic and all its tragedy.
has presented options for some governments to actually move in different directions that were harder to do pre pandemic because of all sorts of.
Things in our culture and society, I think what we should be working on is to make sure that they don't abandon these things now and in fact they grow them
Because, like the idea that we're going to do, build this social safety net during the pandemic and then reduce it two years later is really
Like you might as well box history up and throw it off Niagara falls because you're like, because if you can't even remember two years ago
I don't know what we're doing, and we know that these places do have short memories, but we should just remind them
that these were good things during the pandemic, they will be good things after as well, and we should just keep doing them and
allow what covid has revealed not to marginalized communities, but I think, to the broader community.
Allow that messaging to spur the change that we actually need to build the society that is going to work better for more people.
FAIZA HIRJI: Thanks so much Jesse all great points and I think.
I just want to say I fully appreciate you pointing out the isolation that comes from the pioneering roles that people like you and like Joan and Sharon and Susan have played.
And, but it's so important to try and build some structures of support which
doesn't seem like it should be so hard and yet historically we haven't done a good job of it, so I
appreciate you pointing that out. I think the other, one of the other points so that you're making, which I think.
is important is that, again, these are all problems that were here before, and yet we just didn't have the political will to
act on them, and this reminds me of saying and i'm sorry I can't remember if it was Sharon or Susan but maybe i'll ask Susan to comment on it first.
But I think one of you had made a point during your talk.
That there was always a need to revamp the workplace in the film industry and for a long time again
the will wasn't there to do it because of who runs the film industry but covid has now called attention to the fact that
If it must be done, it can be done, and so we're doing it, but again is this going to be a temporary fix or will there be, will there be again
that incentive or that desire to really try and make meaningful change, so I wonder if Susan wouldn't mind commenting on that first if that's okay.
SUSAN BRINTON: Sure, I think at the workplace, we all need to you know work with the unions work with the US and Canadian producers.
Try and learn from what we gained from the pandemic in terms of more planning more
efficiencies on a production set because that's the real difficulty are the working hours and
you know pathways into the industry is a major difficulty for anybody who's not in the dominant culture on set.
I think what we found more than anything really it is a critical question and it's one of our major ones going forward it's also the child care.
We did our family care project just the last couple of months, and that was a critical one you know, childcare
became it existed beforehand, the issue of child care, but there became an opportunity to talk about it.
In terms of the pandemic because we got to see firsthand we could recognize the unpaid Labor of women begin with you know that unpaid home care.
All of a sudden became front and center and you could see it, and so there became less an argument about who should be doing this unpaid labor and more of a recognition that it existed.
And from our research was definitely hitting women the hardest and racialized and indigenous women significantly.
And it is a societal issue that now, the government has put money into promoting national childcare.
That's where we're waiting to see is how its implemented, you know, the proof is in the pudding so that's what we're looking at.
In terms of really significant change, I think it would be hard once it's implemented to take back the national day care, but you know we have to really work to make sure it works for everybody.
In our industry, you know the gig economy in the film industry, production is very similar to shift work etc it's really hard to find
daycare, especially for those late hours evenings and weekends and that's a real challenge for parents and carers in the industry.
Absolutely, and one that I'm very empathetic to just before this panel started Susan and Sharon were commenting on my children running around the back of the room so.
I think we all know that these are very real everyday challenges for people, Sharon did you want to add something
whether it's the on the revamping of the workplace or anything related to this notion of opportunity arising from crisis.
No, Susan I think handled it really well, except that anybody that's doing research on the industry from a gender perspective...
SUSAN BRINTON: She never freezes.
Of course, and of course this is the moment where
as we all wait to see what happens next well you know what I think, oh there's movement. Alright Sharon
SHARON MCGOWAN: Am I back?
SUSAN BRINTON: Yeah there you are
Okay, oh my it says i'm unstable.
So maybe I shouldn't speak right now
SHARON MCGOWAN: I'll just wait a few minutes.
To be clear, I probably said, your Internet connection is unstable.
SHARON MCGOWAN: Oh okay.
FAIZA HIRJI: During the pandemic I think there's days where we all wonder about ourselves, okay.
FAIZA HIRJI: Okay well why don't I give you a bit of a break Sharon, I will just say by the way for our panelists that I have when I ask
A question i'll also drop it in the chat in case you're like
me and sometimes you need to actually see it instead of just hearing it.
But so maybe I'll ask my second question and we'll start with someone other than Sharon so that in case of bandwidth problems.
So what have you seen as some key successes in recent policy initiatives that involve digital platforms and I know that I heard some of you talk about this in your keynote.
And so I don't know if there's more that you want to add, or if there's something specific that you'd like to highlight, but just any sort of successful initiatives or
or policy
changes that you'd like to spotlight in terms of digital platforms and maybe Jesse if it's okay i'll start with you.
JESSE WENTE: Yeah I was just trying to come up with an answer, you know
I mean there's certainly a lot in bill C-10 you know, obviously we're pleased with some of the language changes in specific around the
indigenous community I like the redefinition of broadcast I think that is a more accurate definition of what is reality in terms of broadcasting in 2021.
You know, I have some, I share some concerns with folks around some of the other major issues in it, I think, as much as we focus on the foreign
streaming companies, contributing to the Canadian content, we should not forget the massive vertical BDUs that exist in Canada, who actually only contribute a small amount
Of what they make into the system because they've successfully hived off their internet and their a cable services, even though I would argue those should not be
Especially when we see them divesting of content creation to invest more on the actual delivery system that to me suggests
that they are trying to lessen their contribution and to get away from regulation and we shouldn't allow that.
You know because there's, I think frankly for Canadians that's probably more important than necessarily onboarding foreign streamers, although I do think we need to do that.
As well. I'll tell you one thing around where we're going with the government that I found very intriguing they included podcasting which was not actually something
We had originally
included.
Because we were thinking perhaps limited, you know I'm an old guy so I don't, you know, I'm not hip with the kids and what's all happening out there, and so they and
It is a natural fit for us, especially in terms of the way we're seeing storytelling develop, we're seeing a lot of podcasts become licensed properties for other
iterations of the same content and we certainly know that the barrier point for marginalized communities on the podcast is actually quite low.
You know, you can do a podcast with fairly low overhead in terms of actually the production costs and everything.
I actually thought that was, something we didn't think of, they did, and I thought that was an intriguing inclusion and
To me was, we wanted to be really broad in terms of what we were able to offer, be platform agnostic because
i'm more interested in the storytellers than where they're going to end up telling their story like that's sort of secondary to my interest, and so this just actually shows that they understand that and
I think that's a good sign, we need in arts funding in general, there needs to be a broadening of the definitions, to allow more people in.
and an understanding on the funders perspectives that we are always behind the artist in terms of
knowing what is cool and where the audience is, so why don't we just make our policy be able to adapt
As opposed to trying to make the industry adapt to our policy, because that will, we will forever be behind so let's instead imagine policy
That can predict platforms that we can't imagine ourselves because there will be new platforms in
Next year, if I had to guess or like very imminent that none of us sitting here can actually imagine, like i'm just watching I don't know if you're aware of Triller which is like some.
They just did you know huge audience for some weird thing I never even know about that's the point like there's these platforms launching that are doing millions of viewers.
For stuff policymakers are forever not going to be aware of, we just have to make sure that our policies are relevant enough for the artists to be able to find their place through our offerings.
FAIZA HIRJI: All great points and I think that I love the fact that you're talking about highlighting the notion of storytelling rather than the platform and
You know, trying to at least end this
This sort of hamster wheel that we get on where we're always trying to catch up with where the technology is at and yet, as you say
we're not going to be able to predict where the technology will go all of the time. Joan did you have any thoughts on this.
JOAN JENKINSON: My focus with bill C-10 is really about Canadian ownership of international intellectual property, and I think
there's a lot been said about that already I mean it's very attractive when a streaming service comes in and they're
offering real dollars to take your project that you've developed and produced, you know
have the upfront cash versus having to exploit it later, but you know it would be.
I don't know why they need to own it, you know they have so much content already I don't know I mean there's got to be a limit in terms of their
appetite because it's not like they can't license the program and I have it available for a certain period of time and then
have the producers exploit them but I guess I'm not a big business person, so I don't understand that
That endless appetite for owning content, but our industry is not going to move forward if we don't keep our own IP but the producers won't be able to sustain themselves.
We'll just become a production service producer to the United States and that's not going to advance our cultural agenda.
FAIZA HIRJI: Thank you Joan and Sharon is it.
Should we take another chance on the internet now. Would you mind weighing in here.
SHARON MCGOWAN: Yes I seem to be stable at the moment, thank you, I can't agree more with Jesse that the policy should back the artists because the artists are always in the front line determining what's happening.
And, and I think that's just such a brilliant way to go forward and I also take Joan's point and I liked your point earlier from the keynote that you gave that the
Broadcasting act revision C-10 although there's so many exciting things about it, it is really vague in what it's promising to do.
Some of the language, it says serve the needs and interests and reflect their circumstances and aspirations like what does that really mean.
and should we be moving and asking for something a little more specific about what that means, equal money
representation, like data collection, all of these things we've been talking about because we're always on the receiving end of trying to sort through these
really opaque systems right so i'm wondering if there is room for making those kinds of changes, so thank you for your points.
FAIZA HIRJI: That's great, thank you
SUSAN BRINTON: I just want to make one point for, Sharon and I are co chairs and to both your points Joan and Jesse I mean we are volunteers
But we wouldn't have been able to do it if the two of us had worked together it's just so much work and we fortunately have complimentary histories in the industry, television and film.
So yeah it's really a lot of work to get this stuff up and running, one of the only thing I wanted to add was that
The social media platforms, you know it's a conundrum because on the one hand, you know, freedom of expression, but on the other hand
women get really dumped on and trolled and have really difficult times in social media and while I'm not always a fan of
You know, regulation of something like the internet it's just really hard without almost a code of conduct
To be a woman online stating an opinion in any professional capacity or not, journalists, so to me I just don't know how to solve it.
I don't know if the CRT is the right organization to regulate it, but I really think you know what this, especially now, you know we're online all the time.
We need to have an element of respect in social media and what you can say and being held accountable for what you say, and so I just wanted to add that.
I think that's a really good point Susan, of course there is a lot of debate over this right now I don't think anyone's come up with the perfect solution, I don't think anybody wants
You know, an oversight board at Facebook or Twitter to be making these decisions, but at the same time, it does seem as though something needs to be done, and so what's the answer.
But certainly a debate that is going to go on long past this conference I'm sure. Susan since you have the mic maybe i'll ask
you if you can also comment on our next question, so I was really struck by what you called your origin story during your keynote where you talked about
The fact that you really you entered the industry with a certain amount of privilege, because you came from a family that was
already in broadcasting, and so there was a certain amount of comfort there, and maybe accessibility to
To employment and yet at the same time, you know you also experienced harassment and you know being boxed into certain roles and so i'm wondering if you can talk about
On the one hand, you know what have been the successes, so how you've managed to do a lot of advocacy work and so you have managed to find ways to be heard so
FAIZA HIRJI: How have you managed to do that, but then, if you could also talk about what the struggles are as well, and maybe if you could talk about you know, are there mitigation strategies that you found for those.
SUSAN BRINTON: I think the hardest thing that we faced was having to continually prove our case.
It took decades and Sharon was there all the way through and could tell you how long we were at it.
And it really wasn't until 2015 with women in view, when we had the data, that we could
actually say you know you're telling us that you know wow women are really a problem. Well, now we have the data to prove
Where women are at in this industry and and now we're finding going down, you know, women are not all being
treated equally under gender initiatives and we need to find a way to match intersectionalities on that.
You know, we look at women all the way down and there's always a gender issue in almost every cultural situation, and so, how do we deal with that.
We found we really weren't being heard and we just kept going and with the data again it almost hit at the right point, because when Me Too happened
All our work was suddenly seen as valuable and useful and helpful and we were part of the discussion, you know, for the first time.
I think it's been tough, it has been tough and I'll let Sharon add anything else, she wants add
But I mean we really developed a process where you know, the first thing you look at is timing, where's the opportunity.
You know, with the Me Too movement, there's the opportunity then it's like who are the players, you know find out who the players are.
And in our system, most of it is funded by government. Government is taxpayer funded money that was the entry, we went through.
Go to where the money is funded, Telefilm, CMF
The national film board, and then the five broadcasters get them involved because turned out we're like the only country in the world
that had a Canadian, that had a broadcasting act that mentioned equal rights. Not Australia, not the UK not any other
country that we could look at, so we were like this is our entry point and you're not holding up your mandates CRTC, it's in the legislation.
So that, you have to find those triggers on the government that puts them in the position of acknowledging, one your existence and two they have a responsibility
To deal with it and it took a long time but we did get there, we got to the CRTC, and now you know it's going forward into bill C-10, why have women disappeared.
There's no reference to women. It used to say, men, women, and children, although not sure why children are included in the act but in any event, you know it used to say that. Where have we gone.
So that's a struggle for us as well.
Sometimes we're a hot topic and sometimes we aren't but it depends, where the social conversation is at and we're struggling on how to how to support and work with everybody.
And make sure everybody has equitable pathways and equitable opportunities and that's what we've kept hold on.
FAIZA HIRJI: That's great, thank you Susan. Sharon did you want to add anything.
SHARON MCGOWAN: We're kind of like one person, so we shouldn't take up so much time. We'll take up the equivalent of one person, the one thing I wanted to add was that since Susan mentioned I've been at
This a really long time is that we did have the data and we did have it for many, many, many years
before anybody listened to us, so what really is important and it's like Hedy Fry said at
A women's conference we had in Vancouver she said, we have the policies for these kinds of things just nobody acts on them.
And unless there's the public will and the lobbying and the movements, like the racial reckoning, the recent one that's been you know
hundreds of years coming and the women's movement, until you have those moments, nobody in government will listen.
I can't tell you how many meetings, I mean Susan you've blanked out some of the meetings that we had when people were not listening before the public conversation came up, the new wave of feminism.
I mean we went and drank so much beer and ate so many fried chicken and bar food after these disheartening meetings where you know government agencies, people representing would say
Our agenda is not cultural our agenda is industrial and we're here to promote, I remember quoting was to make sure Canadian films are seen at Cannes.
And you know this gender thing or this equity thing or inclusion thing is really not a priority for us, and I can tell you that, that wasn't that long ago it was like maybe five years ago we heard that so
You know you have to wait for the public moment and work with people in the Community, to make it happen.
FAIZA HIRJI: That's a really great, though
depressing point and yet we all know that this is true right but it's interesting because one of the things I was struck by when I was listening to
Your joint keynote and Joan's as well, is that
The emphasis on the facts and the data that you know that we're always trying to gather up the data to support the point that there's under representation and we're always trying to prove that
You know this is not reflective of the population, because otherwise people don't take it seriously if you don't have data well you know what's the point, but
what's interesting there as you're suggesting, that even with the data again unless something happens to suddenly turn the tide.
In terms of you know, the political sentiment at the time or the social sentiment at the time, even though you know reams of data won't make a difference.
Which is unfortunate, but does seem very true. Joan did you want to comment at all on this question of successes as well as the struggles to be heard.
Are you still muted Joan.
Sometimes you just you just have to do it, I remember in 2008 working at VisionTV, which is a small channel
where everybody was talking about cultural diversity, that was the hot topic at that time and for most broadcasters cultural diversity
meant writing an annual report for the CRTC that talked about the lunch and learn that you did or you know the workshop you did on
On diversity, and I mean I did go back to look at some of those annual reports and it's just shocking what passed as doing something.
And so, when I was at VisionTV, we had a license renewal coming up, and we were just
we were concerned about having our license renewed because we were, we had gone through a bit of difficulty
in terms of capturing our Canadian content, and so we decided to ask for something more, so that they could say no to it.
And and focus on the fact that we wanted our license renewal. So what we asked for was a two cent rate
increase over seven years which meant that added up to $14 million dollars, and it was specifically for
Creating cultural diverse content and so we got it and everybody looked at me to say oh well, what are we going to do with it
and at that time CBC went with its billion dollar budget, you know said, you know we can't do anything there's no
This kind of programming is not going to sell, we're not going to get an audience nothing's going to happen.
So I put together the cultural diversity drama program where I looked across the country for
People who were talented and who were ready to take that leap and gave an opportunity, first opportunity for
creators and producers who are now the senior people in the industry like I can name them and they are the ones that are working now and working steadily and who are in demand.
And that wouldn't have happened without just doing it, I was like I'm not going to have
anybody tell me it can't be done, and I think it's the same, it's my Jamaican part coming out.
Like it's like no don't tell me, and I think it's the same thing with the black screen office, we jumped in, we started we're not you know we
took advantage of a situation and a time in our history where we could do something and we've jumped in and we're not going to let anybody to keep us out.
That's amazing and so inspirational, thank you Joan. Jesse did you want to add anything.
JESSE WENTE: I mean, I would just add that I mean, I think you know timing, as everyone is sort of saying, timing is everything and
You know the indigenous screen sector community has been advocating for this office to be forward for like 20 years.
But it is of course not at all coincidence that the country went through a truth and reconciliation process.
You know, and that one of the recommendations or among the recommendations were around media and the creation of more indigenous led media out of that, and voila suddenly
there's space for an indigenous screen office, I mean again finance sort of at the
You know not quite sure if they're hoping you fail level, to begin with, but
So no, timing is everything and in terms of
me, I mean I have I had an advantage that I was already a public figure before the ISO came into
being, i'd already been advocating very publicly for these things sort of a long time so.
Frankly that's probably why I was, if I am the right person for the ISO for this period that's a big part why is because I came in
Having already having a sort of voice or a way to tell people about these issues so that made it easier, but it's
It shouldn't be that way, to be honest and it shouldn't take
This much time and these many reports because you know I could stack the reports, up to the ceiling.
That we do in this country about things that then we get to 25 years later, and I just think about all the harm that has done in the inbetween
Times, and you know, ultimately, my responsibility now is i'm the someone who carries on the work that my aunties and uncles have been doing for a very long
time, and that I continue it so that my nieces and nephews will be able to carry it on when it is their time to do it and
Sometimes you get these accelerating moments, and the timing works and it's and you take a leap, but as one of my mentors Alanis Obomsawin always
reminds me you never get to leap unless you've taken all the little steps first, and so we just as with everyone on this panel
Tomorrow, well not tomorrow, but maybe on Monday, if I can have the weekend we go back to work, we just keep doing it
yes we were in the budget, literally my team was like yay what's next.
Because that's how we
We roll and the job isn't done yet until
I mean, frankly, the job may not be done in my lifetime and I'm okay with that, but if I can
i've seen some extraordinary changes in my lifetime, my grandchildren will now be born into a world where their image
will not be adorn sports stadiums and sports T shirts for childish games that grownups make millions of dollars playing.
that's a big difference, and so the change that I want to see, which is that a change about the story we tell about Canada and the story we're telling about each other, while we're here.
I may not get to witness that full message, but it's not my job to witness it, it's my job to ensure that it's a possibility and that it's something that will happen and so.
Yeah.
Whatever I mean when I think about all the things that the people on this phone call represent having to overcome.
I mean you know we go through a lot and we come out on the other end, my people have been through an enormous amount to be on these territories still and to tell our stories and
A little delay here or there.
doesn't matter when you're playing the one advantage, we have is i'm playing the long game, and I mean the longest of the long games.
And we're often dealing with sectors, who measure things in quarters and they're not equipped to understand that yeah I can wait like that's fine i'll be here
Next weekend if I'm not here my niece or nephew will be here to talk to your niece or nephew about this exact same thing and eventually we'll
we'll move it so, and also I just want to end by thanking all the people on this Panel for all the work they have done.
It helps me do my work that you have done your work, and I hope that I am repaying that
as best I can so miigwech.
Thank you so much that's really again really inspirational and I think it's just really, despite the challenges and the struggles that each of you is describing I think it's really impressive.
How much you've managed to accomplish in the time that you've been doing this work so i'm going to open up now for.
For questions if there's anybody on the call who would like to address a question to the panel.
So you can either drop your question into the chat if you would like and I'll try to keep an eye on that or, if you would like
you're also welcome to just unmute and maybe if you don't mind turn on your camera if your camera is off and address the question directly to the panel that would also be fine.
JOAN JENKINSON: Can I ask Jesse a question.
FAIZA HIRJI: Please do.
So what is next Jesse.
JESSE WENTE: For the ISO?
JOAN JENKINSON: For the ISO.
Um.
I mean in the immediate future right now we're hiring and we've just posted two jobs this week.
more to come.
I mean, I was just going over the, now that we know what our, the commitment from the
government is over the next three years, we actually budgeted out three years, which is just
Wonderful and you know there's like a whole bunch of jobs in there for people, so we gotta hire, grow the organization.
You know grow the board a little bit which i'm hoping will do this year, solidify all that sort of ground stuff, we are actually
Bizarrely, on track in our, the strategic plan I drew up myself three years ago, is bizarrely exactly
where we were right ontime, we were in that plan, I said we would get federal funding entering year four which is basically what we did.
don't ask me how that worked out and
So for us, I think it'll be launching the programs in the fall Joan, so that I think the sort of, we're developed the funding programs over the summer, launch it in the fall.
And then.
grow grow grow, build build build, build the case for the next time we have to argue about continuing the funding or
should I say not continuing it, getting what we asked for the first time around, which is twice as much as what we actually received and then
yeah that's next we're doing a major consultation this summer.
Around eligibility for indigenous, for our program specifically and APTN is a partner on that.
So lots is the answer, but it's all, we're all building to where we will be set up for permanence and
You know I would hope that in 5 years, 5 years may be a little early, certainly 10 years, that you actually have a full fledged indigenous sector, like you, like that's the goal right is that you
You don't just have these earmarked funds and there's some people there's like a couple producers it you actually have
what everyone else has or what the dominant cultures had which is like jobs that get them
feed their kids and mortgages and cottages and or whatever the heck they it is that they're doing and
that's what I hope and I hope that the cultural transformation is the one I spoke of, that that seeds something much, much larger but
that's the immediate steps.
FAIZA HIRJI: That's great, that's a great vision thanks for that question Joan and thanks for your answer Jesse.
So we have a couple of really good questions coming up in the chat and one actually sort of relates to in a way to what next, but it has to do with how we can support
The work of all of your organization so from Mariane, we have a question, what is the role that educational institutions can play in
supporting your organization's work specifically and generally in contributing to dismantling systemic issues in the cultural industries.
And I wonder Sharon, would it be okay, if I asked you to
To leap in first with that one.
SHARON MCGOWAN: Sure, this Conference and the focus that you've taken is enormously helpful, I think bringing together and the leaders
these wonderful people that have great ideas and all of your panels I think it's really important, it does inform
policy and it does inform the next generation or the graduate studies and the thinking that comes
to shape all of this, and it also empowers people like I teach in a film production program and a creative writing program.
This kind of knowledge at an educational level empowers the instructor to actually talk about these issues in the classroom.
And then not be punished with bad evaluations for talking about things that aren't about production like I've had that experience, where I brought up
Issues of inclusion and equity in a class and then I got all sorts of incredible nasty remarks on my evaluations from some students about going off topic
and the legitimising through institutions, but the need for reformation and change really helps that, does that answer your question.
FAIZA HIRJI: I think that's a really great point Sharon, I wonder if, maybe i'll just ask
Susan did you want to comment on that at all.
SUSAN BRINTON: I think.
Educate, what we're finding is that you know they're training researchers, for us.
For example, the family care project we used researchers that had university degrees.
Some are working on their PhDs, some have graduated but want to keep up in the policy side more.
And that's been incredibly helpful in combining the educational and the industrial, the reality on the ground in the set
is developing the language of how to analyze it, how to present it, how to understand it, and so that's what I like about it is that we can bring them into an industry
That they've learned to understand already basic requirements, you know the legislative, the regulatory, the economic, the political.
Because, then they come in and they go oh yeah you know the work you're doing is really interesting and one of our researchers
You know, then went on got it completely changed what I'm going to do you know she's in her 20s and she said
being exposed to this and the advocacy and the activism and the energy and the engagement in the discussion, she's like I know where I want to focus on.
And that was like the best thing I'd ever heard was like yay let's empower the next generation and let's give them
what we've learned and the tools that they need to make that, I kind of find you know the ivory tower and the reality on the set can
Not often mesh
And so we have to you know, bring that together a bit more sometimes but we've had great researchers that have come out of universities working on all our stuff.
FAIZA HIRJI: That's fantastic, thank you. Joan did you want to add anything.
Interesting enough, I have two, I do have two students working with me this summer at the black screen office and
I'm like blown away by what they could do. I'm learning so, we're building a social media campaign
now so that we can do some outreach for the organization and I'm like I just let them go because I don't even know what they're talking about.
It's been so fantastic, so and the other thing is I love that
fresh energy of the younger people who are so entrepreneurial in their approach and the students that I've been speaking to
At various universities, they're they're coming in with an expectation of doing it differently, they're not sort of interested in the status quo.
And necessarily dependent on all the different agencies and things like that, they're like what's telefilm I'm just going to go and do a
TikTok video, and you know have millions of viewers like what are you talking about so I love that fresh really look and energy.
FAIZA HIRJI: That is so true and I think we're certainly in our program always blown away by what our students can do
that, we wouldn't have thought of so it certainly does bring fresh energy and Jesse any last words on that question.
Well, I mean I'd echo what Sharon said, I think conferences like this are really useful and valuable.
You know I think there will be an ongoing need to train, and it's not the sexy part of any of these businesses but administrators.
Particularly on the indigenous side, like I keep saying this to the cultural sector you're going to need way way more of us in the future, like
Even the base that we're, they're starting with the hiring sort of, is not nearly enough they're going to need way more just to do this
appropriately and so we need to train, the other thing I would do as an appeal as an old guy who came up to film school and
I'm, so I would ask that schools teach the content that is being created out of these communities, I know, when I went to film school
They did not teach any, I don't think indigenous cinema, they were aware of that indigenous cinema was like a thing.
and they, and I'm not sure they still don't, I don't think they really teach it now.
And there's certainly enough content now to actually do a course on it so that would be nice and I'd also ask
That we stop lionizing people we know to be
Not the type of people, we want to lionize in our industry, and I know it's hard to
like reconcile with someone, with some historical figures and their behaviors in a different era and all that stuff.
And I get that they made remarkable pieces of art that for me even I still struggle with appreciating them, while acknowledging that their
makers were monsters but let's at least be honest about this because I, so many of the things in our
I think I feel too often in our industry, we have held up the wrong examples, and we have excused and made space and allowed for behaviors
That I find shocking to this day that I've experienced that I don't understand how that's allowed in an industry.
And yet, not only does the time does it seem allowed, at times, it seems that's who gets ahead and
I would love students to know that you do not have to be a jerk
To be a success in the movie business, that just because your heroes were jerks in the movie business
that does not make them talented or like, that makes them jerks and and you shouldn't
I know such brilliant filmmakers who aren't jerks and they still make incredible stuff and like you don't need to behave that way
and just because that's who we teach doesn't mean we should be carrying over that behavior and
yeah that, if there's one thing I love old movies, I live in a world of old movies.
But we don't have to make them the way they did like you don't need to do that, we can just
And so much of what I hear and what we hear from, like so much of it is this is all great this conversation, and I think
someone already mentioned this, but then you get on set and that's a different world and the reality is why is that, the set shouldn't be like that.
Smarter people than me will ultimately I think decolonize the set, especially when we're the
ones that get to decide whose set or even a set in this day and age, like, I think that will help.
But we just need like
Jeah just because the cool guy made a cool movie and is a jerk does not mean that's the way to be a success.
There's way cooler people who are the loveliest people in the world who don't do any of these things and they make movies just as brilliantly. That's who I would
love to champion and to me that's a big part of how we change the sector is idolize different people.
FAIZA HIRJI: I think that's a really important point for all of us to hear not just the students coming out of universities, although
it's interesting how much pushback there is sometimes to this idea that you know that you have to be a certain way to succeed.
There is another question that picks up on a point made by Susan so maybe Susan I'll direct this to you first.
So it picks up on a point that you made about the broadcasting act in relation to similar legislation in other countries so Tamara's asking, to what extent
do you look toward other countries or regions for models or arguments to support some of the changes you'd like to see in Canada.
We totally do that we totally because you know you're looking for other environments where you can learn from best practices
and you can you know skip ahead and see how various scenarios have played out in other countries.
For example, for the family care project, French and English and we looked into nationally and we found you know.
daycare and carer studies in the UK and in Australia, and fortunately or unfortunately they were
all saying the same thing, and so that allowed us to say, this is not peculiar to Canada, this is peculiar to the way we're set up.
As countries.
That this mono cultural way of doing things has really impacted us and
When I was talking about the broadcasting act, we did start there with you know equal opportunity and equal rights, but one of the most fantastic things that allowed Sharon and I
to point to was the Swedish film institute. Anna Serner, a woman running a film agency for the first time in the history of the world came out and said
There is no reason, this funding can't be used on an equitable basis, and
that was their mandate. It was like we won't do quotas unless we have to, but if we have to, we will do quotas.
And you know right at that very beginning that was like, somebody has said, this is not outside the purview of government funding.
They were approaching it, they were approaching it through a similar lens of gender and one of the most beautiful things I remember, and we attach this to almost everything we did in the beginning.
It was the myths, the myths about women working in film and television, well
They don't have the drive to be a director they don't want to be directors, they don't have creative vision, they don't want to work on set you know, there are all these
myths that they one by one disseminated and what that allowed us to do is say we are not going to argue about legitimacy here we're taking it as a given.
This is a legitimate issue it's been demonstrated around the world we're not going to let you drag us down into a discussion about whether women really have the drive and ambition
to want to work as directors. That's a non starter for us, so it always helps to be able to point to other jurisdictions, other countries that have done something successfully or otherwise
To underline your argument and put the voice forward and especially when you can point to ones like in the UK and Australia that are making exactly the same points you are.
Then you have the bigger stick of saying this is not unique to our country because of a little tinkering we can fix, this is a systemic problem around the world.
FAIZA HIRJI: Thanks so much Susan, and so we don't have a lot of time left but i'm wondering Joan if maybe I could give you the final word on that question, please.
JOAN JENKINSON: Something that really, an organization that really helped me was the indigenous screen office
for one thing as a model but also in a conversation with Jesse when he recommended
checking out screen Australia, and they have done some phenomenal work like I mean they were told, for years, it couldn't be done and they just took it on
in such a systematic strategic way where they trained
Young young people and followed them in their career and supported them and to the point now where they're international
successes and some of their shows from this little tiny community are traveling internationally, some of my favorite shows that I watch, you know movies and
TV shows and it just, they are playing the long game too, like taking people talented people from when they're young and
really getting behind them and giving them the support and I think that's a fantastic model for all of us really to follow.
FAIZA HIRJI: That's great, thank you so much.
Thanks so much, so I wish we could keep talking I think there's so much more that we'd all like to hear about, but I really want to thank all of you for
Not just your participation today, but for all of the work that you do in this sector, I think that we all benefit in ways that
Probably the public doesn't always realize but there's obviously a benefit to us all.
And I really want to thank you too, I think sometimes you know, sometimes
Sara and I talk about this, in non pandemic times we have offices right across from each other and sometimes we talk about ways to bring policy alive when we're talking to students
which she certainly more expert on than I am
But I really love the way that I think this panel has brought up the really human aspect and the individual aspect of what policy means.
That these changes are brought forward by people grinding it out, one day at a time, sometimes against tremendous odds.
And I think we really all appreciate that, and I know i'm certainly going to look forward to sharing some of these insights with my own students.
I also want to quickly, before I pass it back to Sara just to say thank you to
Thank you to all of you for your time, thank you to those who came to participate and also thank you to the organizers for creating this space for this discussion. I think that
The keynotes throughout the week have been absolutely brilliant I think we've all really enjoyed them and it's so great to have all of you gathered here today to talk about it some more. Thank you very much.
JOAN JENKINSON: Thank you.
SHARON MCGOWAN: Thank you.
Thank you so much.
SARA BANNERMAN: Thank you.
I said I wanted to thank you all as well and add my thanks and thank Faiza Hirji as well, for having chaired this spectacular panel.
It's really wonderful and we've been talking about models and I think I'm really happy that we have this
session, and also a recording of it that we can use because I think we have a wonderful set of models here
And role models for our students and for all of us to follow, so thank you so very much for that.